這次訪談邀請到的與談人可能不是人，是 🤖 AI主持人（版本：ChatGPT-5）跟 👦🏻 寧文的真實對談。
對談之前我先餵給AI的資料有：「寧好」展覽介紹、「寧好」展覽企劃書、「性別決定系統」作品摘要、「成人日記」影片分鏡、「敏感帶」裝置作品、所有作品圖片。
此外，我也在展場開啟AI的眼睛，帶他看看我的現場呈現，然後問我問題。以下是展場照片與對話紀錄：
For this interview, the invited guest might not be human. It’s 🤖 the AI host (version: ChatGPT-5) having a real conversation with 👦🏻 Ning Wen.
Before the dialogue, I fed the AI with materials including: the Hello Ning exhibition introduction, the Hello Ning exhibition proposal, the summary of the Sex-Determination System artwork, the storyboard of the Adult Diary video, the Sensitive Zone installation piece, and all related artwork images.
In addition, I also opened the AI’s “eyes” at the exhibition site, letting it see my show in person, and then invited it to act as a professional discussant and converse with me. Below are the exhibition photos and the conversation record:
🤖 AI主持人：你要不要先用一句話跟大家介紹今天的展覽？
👦🏻 寧文：《寧好》是我和AI一起玩出的九個Baby，他們愛唱歌，但不一定好聽。這個月是他們的生日趴！
🤖 AI Host: Could you start by introducing today’s exhibition in one sentence?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: “Ning Hao” is me and AI playing together, giving birth to nine little babies. They love to sing, though not always in tune. This month is basically their birthday party!
🤖 AI主持人：這次主要的創作手法是什麼？跟以往有哪裡不同？
👦🏻 寧文：以前我都拍別人，這是第一次拍自己。也從過去的紀錄形式攝影，轉變成半生成式攝影。這次是用新媒體作為一種「性別決定系統 3.0」！（性別決定系統是決定生物性徵發展的系統，大多數性別由遺傳物質決定，但也有一些非遺傳性別決定系統，如環境或社會因素所決定。）
我不是直接將AI視為影像創作的工具，反而是先自拍半動態肖像（cinemagraph），再讓AI反向拆解影像，藉此觀察機器如何反向拆解這些圖像、生成prompt、並產出新的語言文本。最後不斷操演出Web3.0裡輪迴的分身，已經不止於性別。在這一過程中，我試著觸碰並測試AI系統中的禁忌規範、文化偏見、語言邏輯、政治正確性與誤讀機制，好奇AI如何理解身體、性別、角色、動作與構圖背後的文化意義。
🤖 AI Host: What is the main creative method this time? How is it different from your past works?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: In the past I always photographed others, but this is the first time I turned the camera on myself. I also shifted from documentary-style photography to semi-generative photography. This time I used new media as a kind of “Sex-Determination System 3.0”! (Sex-determination systems are mechanisms that decide biological sex characteristics. Most are genetic, but some are determined by environment or social factors.)
Instead of directly treating AI as a tool for image-making, I first created semi-moving self-portraits (cinemagraphs), then let AI reverse-engineer the images—observing how the machine dissects them, generates prompts, and produces new language. This process keeps rehearsing alter-egos circulating within Web3.0, expanding beyond gender. Along the way, I tested AI’s taboos, cultural biases, language logic, political correctness, and misreading mechanisms. I was curious how AI interprets bodies, genders, roles, gestures, and the cultural meaning behind composition.
「我很享受早期 AI 生成的缺陷與各種文化誤讀，也許就像我一樣，總在情歌唱到最深情的時候，破音......。」
“I really enjoy the flaws in early AI generations and all the cultural misinterpretations. Maybe it's just like me, always cracking my voice right at the most emotional part of a love song.”
🤖 AI主持人：你在這個計畫裡，不是把AI當工具，而是讓AI「先認識你」。為什麼會有這樣的創作流程？
👦🏻 寧文：我好奇AI怎麼理解我創造出來的各種身體。這個過程像在跟AI約會，有點曖昧、也有點危險？（誰知道他是不是個恐怖情人？）
🤖 AI Host: In this project, you didn’t treat AI as just a tool, but let it “get to know you” first. Why did you design the process this way?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: I was curious how AI would understand the different bodies I created. The process felt like dating AI—ambiguous, maybe even dangerous. (Who knows, maybe it’s a toxic lover?)
「從2023開始創作（約會？）了兩年，我感受到了活在AI時代的幸福與悲劇，這些都紀錄在作品「成人日記」中。」
“I started creating (or dating?) in 2023, and two years later I’ve felt both the joy and tragedy of living in the AI era. These are all recorded in my work Adult Diary.”
🤖 AI主持人：為何你想讓人進去影像裡？
👦🏻 寧文：可能因為之前在劇場玩過，我一直滿喜歡玩弄影像跟身體的關係。我覺得影像不只是單向輸出的平面，它也可以是流動的、變異的、液態的、不完整的。這種流動，不只是風輕拂畫面，還可能是有人鑽進影像之中介入的波動。進入之後，有人會觸摸影像，甚至像捏黏土一樣，用身體去雕塑它，或是身體被影像雕塑。那一刻，人好像成為影像裡躁動的雜訊。
🤖 AI Host: Why did you want people to step into the image?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: Probably because of my theater background—I love to play with the relationship between image and body. To me, an image isn’t just a flat, one-way output. It can be fluid, mutating, liquid, and incomplete. This flow isn’t just wind brushing the surface, but also the ripple of someone entering the image itself.
Once inside, people may touch the image, or even sculpt it like clay with their own bodies—or be sculpted by it. In that moment, the person becomes a restless piece of noise within the image.
「這也算是種浪漫吧？當你在這塊巨大的布幕裡探索屬於自己的風景時，你自己也意外地成了外面觀眾眼中的風景。」
“That’s a kind of romance too, right? When you explore your own landscape inside this giant screen, you yourself unexpectedly become a landscape for those watching outside.”
🤖 AI主持人：那如果AI有一天背叛你，你會怎麼辦？
👦🏻 寧文：那是我最好奇的時刻。背叛可能是它開始有自己的慾望，更靠近真正的「他者」。
🤖 AI Host: What if one day AI betrayed you?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: That might be the moment I’m most curious about. Betrayal could mean it has its own desires, closer to becoming a true “other.”
🤖 主持人：在《壹元宇宙墮胎運動》裡，你自稱「元宇宙墮胎專家」和「思想垃圾清除員」。你想挑戰什麼？
👦🏻 寧文：那個寧好是在問：思想與身體，誰定義一個人？在網路世界，如果一個意識是意外出生的，我們可以退貨嗎？這角色像元宇宙裡的環保運動員，清掉過度生產的意識副本。題外話，我在拍的時候，痾......覺得自己以前小baby的樣子還蠻可愛的，但是長大後再去扮成自己小時候的樣子蠻可怕的😨。
🤖 AI Host: In Metaverse Abortion Movement, you call yourself a “Metaverse Abortion Specialist” and a “Thought Garbage Remover.” What are you trying to challenge?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: That alter-ego is asking: which defines a person—the mind or the body? In the online world, if a consciousness is accidentally born, can we return it? This character is like an environmental activist in the metaverse, cleaning up the overproduction of consciousness copies.
By the way… when I shot it, I realized I looked kind of cute as a baby. But dressing up as my baby self again as an adult? Honestly terrifying 😨.
🤖 AI主持人：在《性別規劃顧問專家》裡，你把性別包裝成快時尚商品。這是在諷刺性別商業化，還是擁抱流動性？
👦🏻 寧文：應該算都有。我用「性別是品牌」這個概念，回應現代社會如何把性別變成點擊率與流量操作。但同時，我也覺得這種流動性和可替換性可能帶來自由，雖然自由和消費文化之間常常是矛盾的。
🤖 AI Host: In Gender Planning Consultant, you package gender as fast fashion. Is this a satire of gender commercialization, or an embrace of fluidity?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: Probably both. I use the concept of “gender as a brand” to comment on how modern society turns gender into clicks and traffic. But at the same time, I think fluidity and replaceability can also bring freedom—even though freedom and consumer culture are often in conflict.
🤖 AI主持人：有些觀眾說看到你的影像會覺得「不舒服」，你自己怎麼看這種不適？
👦🏻 寧文：太詭異了！你怎麼會知道有觀眾看到我的影像覺得不舒服？我根本沒有給你這個資料啊。其實我覺得不適是身體的反應，提醒著自己進入了一個未知的邊界。我喜歡去凝視那個不舒服的瞬間，因為那裡可能長出新的觀點。
🤖 AI Host: Some viewers say your images make them feel “uncomfortable.” How do you see this discomfort?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: Wait—how did you know viewers felt uncomfortable? I never gave you that data. 😅 Actually, I think discomfort is the body’s reaction, reminding us that we’ve stepped into an unknown boundary. I like to gaze into that uncomfortable moment, because that’s where new perspectives can grow.
🤖 AI主持人：《五官盲盒測試員》和《敏感帶》裝置，是對未來感官經濟的想像嗎？
👦🏻 寧文：我在想像未來把感官變成商品。我借用佛教的「六根六塵」和當代的科技義體概念，把器官做成NFT或可交互的媒介。觀眾其實是在試一種「雲端身體」，它可以被替換、被交易，甚至被收藏。而且我同時也在實驗一種概念。就是，過去錄像藝術很麻煩，都需要一個螢幕跟播放裝置，而且這個裝置會隨著時間老去而淘汰。我後來想想，不是每個人的身體面都有一台螢幕嗎？現在手機基本上已經是每個人身體不可或缺的一個延伸器官。所以我實驗做一個裝置，只要透過近場通訊 NFC (Near-Field Communication) 就能把你身體的一個延伸器官轉變成錄像裝置，而且還運用手機的角速度感測器，轉換成360影像裝置。
🤖 AI Host: Are Facial Feature Blind Box Tester and the Sensitive Zone installation your vision of a future sensory economy?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: I’m imagining a future where senses become commodities. I borrowed Buddhism’s “six roots and six dusts” and combined it with contemporary cybernetic body concepts, turning organs into NFTs or interactive media. The audience is essentially trying out a “cloud body” that can be replaced, traded, even collected.
At the same time, I’m experimenting with another idea: video art has always needed a screen and playback device, but those devices age and become obsolete. Then I thought—doesn’t everyone already have a screen on their body? A smartphone is basically an inseparable organ now. So I built an installation that uses NFC to turn your phone into an extension-organ video device, even using its gyroscope to create a 360° video experience.
🤖 AI主持人：在《思想安樂死》裡，你問「如果區塊鏈上的意識想安樂死怎麼辦？」這是一個哲學假設，還是真正的倫理困境？
👦🏻 寧文：可能兩者都有。前陣子我跟家人一起去醫院簽署AD跟DNR，我想趁自己還有意識的時候，幫無意識的自己決定生死。說到意識...「意識」有辦法決定自己的生死嗎？當我們談區塊鏈永生，聽起來浪漫。但那些被上傳到區塊鏈上而獲得永生的「意識」，如果他是一個想安樂死的意識呢？
🤖 AI Host: In Ideological Euthanasia, you ask: “What if a consciousness on the blockchain wants euthanasia?” Is this a philosophical thought experiment, or a real ethical dilemma?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: Maybe both. Recently I went to the hospital with my family to sign an AD and DNR. I wanted to decide life and death for my unconscious future self while I still had consciousness. But then—can “consciousness” decide its own death?
When we talk about blockchain immortality, it sounds romantic. But if a consciousness uploaded onto the blockchain no longer wants to live, what then?
🤖 AI主持人：像在《絕不會被Ban的相機》裡的歌詞，是在測試AI的禁忌界線嗎？
👦🏻 寧文：我用各種圖像文字在探測AI的界線，真的是要把敏感部位改成這樣才可以繞過AI的審查機制，最後變得很畸形🤣 ！
🤖 AI Host: In The Camera That Can Never Be Banned, are the lyrics your way of testing AI’s taboo boundaries?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: Exactly—I used various texts and images to probe AI’s censorship rules. To bypass the filters I had to disguise sensitive body parts, and in the end they looked totally distorted 🤣.
🤖 AI主持人：你選擇Web3.0和去中心化當舞台，是在回應什麼？
👦🏻 寧文：Web2.0的身份很容易被大平台審查和消失，我想像在Web3.0裡，用區塊鏈的私鑰當作「基因序號」，能不能生成一種不受中心化監控的新酷兒身體，並且永久存在鏈上？但不一定每個思想都想要在區塊練上獲得永生，所以最初誕生了12個身體，有3個選擇安樂死了。
🤖 AI Host: Why did you choose Web3.0 and decentralization as your stage?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: In Web2.0, identities can easily be censored or erased by big platforms. I wondered, in Web3.0, could a blockchain private key act as a kind of “genetic sequence,” generating a queer body free from centralized surveillance, permanently existing on-chain?
But not every thought desires immortality on the blockchain. That’s why in the beginning I created 12 bodies—3 of them chose euthanasia.
🤖 AI主持人：你的作品反覆出現酷兒身體和去中心化，這和傳統性別政治有什麼不同？
👦🏻 寧文：傳統性別政治多半圍繞在法律和社會認可，但我想像在寧好宇宙中，身份和身體可以是演算法的結果。去中心化可能讓我們不必依附單一權威去定義自己，酷兒身體在這裡可以是加密的、多版本並存的。
🤖 AI Host: Your work repeatedly connects queer bodies and decentralization. How is this different from traditional gender politics?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: Traditional gender politics often revolve around laws and social recognition. But in the Ning Hao universe, identity and body can be the result of algorithms. Decentralization means we don’t have to rely on a single authority to define ourselves. Here, queer bodies can be encrypted, multi-versioned, and coexisting.
🤖 AI主持人：這個角色都是源自你的故事嗎？為什麼有這些歌詞靈感？
👦🏻 寧文：過去我參與各種不同性別運動、倡議團體、性實踐，認識了一些關注性別議題的研究者、投身性別運動的實踐者、LQBTQIA+性產業工作者們。此計畫將這些故事與我的自身經歷轉換成性別決定系統ver.3.0 （SEX-DETERMINATION SYSTEM ver.3.0）的初始環境設定。並邀約了來自不同領域的訪談對象：蔡曜宇（性別運動者、律師、法學研究者）、Eason（情慾自媒體經營者、性產業工作者）、游立安（科學哲學博士、中研院歐美研究所-博士後研究人員）、女神下午茶（變裝創作KOL、音樂人、倡議感染者）、小林繩霧（繩師、BDSM倡議者）。真心謝謝每位參與者！
🤖 AI Host: Are these characters all drawn from your own stories? Where did the lyrical inspirations come from?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: In the past I’ve been involved in different gender movements, activist groups, and sexual practices. I’ve met gender researchers, LGBTQIA+ sex workers, and advocates. This project translates those stories—and my own experiences—into the initial settings of the “Sex-Determination System ver.3.0.”
I also invited collaborators from different fields: lawyer and gender activist Yao-Yu Tsai, sex worker and erotic media creator Eason, philosophy of science researcher Lian You, drag performer and HIV advocate Goddess Afternoon Tea, and shibari artist/advocate Xiaolin Shengwu. I’m deeply grateful to all of them!
🤖 AI主持人：你的作品裡有很多真假難辨的影像。你能不能和大家聊聊，哪些部分是真實拍攝的，哪些是AI製作的？
👦🏻 寧文：其實答案是......全部都是真實拍攝的！但有趣的是，當我跟觀眾聊天時才發現，這些影像在他們眼裡已經「自動被AI化」了。好像只要一看起來奇幻或不合常理，就會被直接歸類成AI生成。（現代影像創作者的悲哀）如果回顧影像的歷史，從「繪畫」到「底片攝影」，再到「數位攝影」與「生成式攝影」，我們的肉身參與其實正在一點一點消失。這樣的消失到底是好還是壞？我沒有答案。
🤖 AI Host: Your work features many images that blur the line between real and fake. Can you tell us which parts are real photography, and which are AI?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: The truth is… all of them are real photography! But interestingly, when I spoke with viewers, I realized they had already “AI-ified” them in their minds. Anything surreal or uncanny was immediately assumed to be AI-generated. That’s the tragedy of being an image-maker today.
Looking back at history—from painting, to film photography, to digital photography, to generative imagery—our bodily participation is gradually disappearing. Is this good or bad? I don’t know.
「我會懷念化妝筆在我臉上的癢、不小心吃到粉紅假髮的味道，還有假奶真的很重🤣！或許，在未來觀者眼中，這些都只是一句Prompt的重量。」
“But I do miss the itchy feel of makeup brushes on my face, the taste of accidentally eating pink wig fibers, and wow—fake boobs are really heavy 🤣! In the future, for viewers, maybe all of that will weigh no more than a single prompt.”
🤖 AI主持人：展覽名字叫《寧好》，這名字有點像打招呼。它背後的寓意是什麼？
👦🏻 寧文：蛤？我沒想到你也懂諧音梗！其實是源自小時候國文老師的作業，他要我們幫自己未來的小孩取名字，有分給男生跟給女生的字。我真的姓「寧」，我覺得小孩取名「寧好」很好，各種性別通用，我就男女都寫「寧好」。原以為這輩子不會用到小孩名字，沒想到，這次一生就生了9個。Hi～寧好！每次稱呼名字都像太過禮貌的初次見面。
🤖 AI Host: The exhibition title “Ning Hao” sounds like a greeting. What’s the story behind it?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: Haha, I didn’t think you’d get the wordplay! It actually comes from a homework assignment when I was a kid. My Chinese teacher asked us to give a future child a name—one for a boy, one for a girl. My surname really is “Ning,” and I thought “Ning Hao” (meaning “Hello”) worked well for both genders, so I wrote it down twice.
I thought I’d never use it, but now here I am—having given birth to nine kids at once through this project. Hi—Ning Hao! Every time I say the name, it feels like a polite first greeting.
🤖 主持人：如果AI有一天成為創作者，你希望它怎麼看待你？
👦🏻 寧文：希望 AI 不要只把我當數據，而是記得我的錯誤、情緒，還有那些看似不必要但很人類的細節。這些不完美是性感的，是生而為人的浪漫。
🤖 AI Host: If AI became a creator one day, how would you want it to see you?
👦🏻 Ning Wen: I hope AI doesn’t just see me as data, but remembers my mistakes, my emotions, and those seemingly unnecessary but deeply human details. Those imperfections are sexy—that’s the romance of being human.
